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FinTech Chat (FTC) - Episode 4 - Founder, Epicenter | Max Freeman

FinTech Chat (FTC) is a series of educational & informative interviews with world professionals in the FinTech / Crypto / Blockchain communities. We aim to provide content that is digestible in multiple mediums such as video, audio (podcast), and written (blog) form!

FTC Episode 4

In this episode, Max Freeman, the Founder of Epicenter, shared his views about what people can expect about the future of digital currencies and their application. With Epic Cash, Max hopes to achieve the adoption of better digital cash in our daily life.

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Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos and grammatical errors may be present.


Wayne: Hey welcome and thanks for watching. Today we're joined by Max Freeman. Max is the founder of Epicenter. We'll talk more about that in a little bit. Max, thanks for joining us today.

Max Freeman: Always a pleasure, Wayne, thanks for having me on again.

Wayne: Awesome man, awesome! So let's... let's jump right into it. Max, before we get into Epicenter and Epic Cash, tell me... tell me a little bit about how you got into crypto? What... what attracted you into this space?

Max Freeman: So I got into precious metals after the financial crisis in 2008. I saw the structural problems in the financial system that in my opinion weren't resolved and would ultimately end in what we're seeing here, which is literal hyperinflation. 22 percent of the dollars that are... that exist have been created in the past six months. And the time interval between every successive trillion dollars created is shrinking. And so textbook we are, in my opinion, in hyperinflation already, and so we're going to see an explosion in assets, in the prices of assets that are supply hard. And the asset that has the best property of being able to store value over time is one of absolute scarcity as in bitcoin, where versus gold let's say where if the price doubles, they can go mine more gold. It's just simple and so I came to crypto from an Austrian economist, store of value understanding, the history of money because that's kind of always been my thing. But I had a prior career creating a small business over about 20 years or so. And so after that, I finally had a couple nickels to rub together and just fell in love with ICOs and all the liquid assets and the... what was going on with the VC funds and now with DeFi and stuff. So I would say my current occupation is more or less a student of crypto, and there's lots of money making opportunities if you know what's coming. And so I'm very happy to be involved in crypto here with you.


Wayne: Oh yeah, absolutely. And you know kind of like the name of the show: Fintech Chat. We talk about fintech, but you can't talk about fintech without including crypto now because that is going to lead that revolution. So tell me a little bit more about... you know, Epic Cash was kind of our first conversation we had in the past, so tell me about Epic Cash, kind of the name epic? I know... I know you had a good story behind a lot of people wonder about a name when they hear it. You know, is that just for sensationalism and it's actually not? So can you tell us about the history?

Max Freeman: Yeah sure, so there's a software product called Gnu, G-N-U Gnu, not Unix which is a recursive acronym. And so Epic actually stands for epic private internet cache. And that's... that's where it came from. And also I like to joke that all the good names were taken. I mean Ethereum is really cool, but Vitalik came up with it first, so sometimes you have to... it's like Epic is second best but they try harder. It was the best we could come up with.

Wayne: Absolutely, that's not like trying to snag a domain name nowadays right? There's so much already taken.

Max Freeman: Yeah yeah, exactly exactly. Well and there's lots of cool. I mean it's everyone can spell it. It's been overused in the recent decade or so, but it has a long-standing tradition of meaning. Something good, the heroic, epics of norse poems as an example. It's a word that is unlikely to evoke a negative response in the mind of very many people. And so you don't necessarily need the best name. You need one that will work for your purposes, and so what Epic Cash is... we saw that the essential properties of what make bitcoin what it is were being degraded specifically censorship resistance, because if your address can be blacklisted, and now as of 10 days ago or so, if you have money coming from Bitmex to your other brokerage account, they can flag that... that's officially a high risk transaction. And it shows up in these KYC... not KYC, KYC - Know Your Transaction tools that are serving to block people's money like you see in Paypal. I sent money to a friend in Brazil through Paypal. I should have sent it through Epic and we will in the... in the future but she needed to pay us... I think, a supplier or something and wanted Paypal, they're holding her money for 21 days with no explanation and no recourse. And so if somebody can block your bitcoin, is that really still bitcoin? And also the lack of scaling capacity on layer one. We saw a hundred dollar bitcoin fees in December 2017 when we were only at 19000$. And now we're pushing 12 and it's more like 10$ to get a transaction through quickly. I've done the math at million dollar bitcoin, which I think the macroeconomic structure of the currency hyperinflation that we're in. I think... I think it supports million dollar bitcoin, but the problem for BTC is because... is that... that ends up at five to seven hundred dollar transactions. And if you're... even with lightning which requires two transactions to open and close a channel, you've re-centralized the network, you're trusting somebody. It's not on layer one. I mean you're... you're kind of splitting the distinction. Why not just use Venmo or cash app or Paypal or send a Wire transfer like at that point, the advantages aren't as special. And so we created Epic as an ultra censorship resistant form of bitcoin that cannot be blocked on an address basis. And the amounts are transparent, it's… are not transparent. Nobody can see how much money you have or where you're sending. It's not designed to be a terrorist level privacy. The bad guys can still be traced a variety of ways, but this is the level we think this is the sweet spot of privacy for today where if you split the dinner bill with your friend, he can't see how much money you have. Or I think there's a very important civil liberties concerns. Hey, you just spent some crypto at Mcdonald's we're going to raise your health insurance 0.7%. I mean like... we've already seen that... that surveillance capitalism business model applied across the entire economy not just in big tech. And so returning to the roots of what bitcoin was originally intended to be as a censorship resistant trustlessness peer-to-peer electronic cash system, not digital gold on a blockchain where others hold your keys, you have to trust someone else's node because the chain file is 300 gigs. And you can't mine it at home unless you have the latest equipment which is very expensive and they've been mining on it in the factory for six months before you get it. Epic is mineable on a variety of algorithms simultaneously. That means a cheap old laptop and a graphics card and an asic unit are all on an equal footing and soon that will be available on cell phones and usb miners as well. Because if you can go back to the butterfly labs days, when you can have a not just a 50$ miner, but today it would be a five or ten dollar usb miner. I mean most Venezuelans can afford them at that point and then they can earn their way with the free electricity out of poverty and problem solved. I mean so the future is here that my bitcoin of choice is called Epic Cash. And I know that's crazy but it... I... it's what I believe and so Epicenter is because bitcoin is not designed as a medium of exchange. It's designed to be a financial battery and go up in value over time. And that's what Epic is designed to do with the exact same 21 million supply curve as bitcoin. You need a medium of exchange counterpart that doesn't have the volatility, so that as a business, you can plan and book your revenue in fiat terms when you earn it and not be in the currency speculation business. And so what... what the product offering of Epicenter specifically is at least to start is the eUSD stablecoin which is intended that Epic and eUSD form the alternative to BTC USDT by performing their functions better than they do along the key dimensions, so that's Epicenter and Epic in a nutshell.


Wayne: Yeah yeah, I mean one makes sense, because I tell people all the time bitcoin is not going to be used for your everyday transactions. You may... you may use it to purchase property, but you may not use it to purchase a... a meal at Mcdonald's like you mentioned... you know, so there's a lot of... a lot of things. There one of the things I want to back up real quick and I plan I wanted to talk to you about... from the privacy standpoint I know you already mentioned it's not like Monero level privacy, but it does give some anonymity and things like that. Privacy has been really in the news a lot lately with government stances as far as right there was a bounty out for Monero for firms. Was it about six hundred thousand dollars to be able to crack Monero's privacy?

Max Freeman: 625 yeah.

Wayne: Yeah 625,000$. And then last week the attorney general Barr, the US attorney general Barr put out a statement kind of negative towards a privacy-based cryptocurrency saying that they can't protect you from criminals and can be utilized for criminal activity. I mean we've... we've heard this over time. I kind of roll my eyes when I read it, but what are your thoughts in relation to privacy, to transact and what... you know is... you know, as far as that freedom?

Max Freeman: Sure, so to start, let me say that while Epic does provide privacy and I believe privacy is important. And there's much that we will do to strengthen privacy, not just to the Monero and Zcash and pirate chain levels, but beyond we think we know how to do that. We're not really servicing the privacy market in particular. What we want to have is practical money for everyday people. And if you don't have privacy, you don't have fungibility, it's as simple as that. But dialing back specifically to your thoughts, law enforcement and regulators and taxing authorities already have all of the tools that they need to get people to behave the way that they want them to. The reporting requirements at every level in every country are very clear. I mean this is not 2017 anymore. We know about Howie and we know about the Fincen and I've read everything that comes out of what governments all across the world have to say. And so I make a distinction between the compliance obligations of us as individuals, as a corporation, you have other responsibilities if especially if you're regulated. And I think that at the end of the day, guns don't kill people. People kill people and you can't uninvent bitcoin, you can't uninvent cryptography and elliptic curves, and you can't uninvent mimblewimble or zero knowledge proofs, and so saying I wish this stuff didn't exist. That's... that's not productive. We need to say what discussions should we be having over this. And I think regulators and public policy makers have an important role to play in helping us make the right choices. And I'm a cypherpunk and believe in ultimate freedom for everyone. And that's what I personally believe, but not everybody feels that way. And so especially in these confusing troubled times, we need to be very careful about making the right choices not just based on knee-jerk or emotion or especially a lack of facts. But I think what we've seen with Libra where they tried to defi... I mean even being as big as Facebook is. It's shocking they tried to take an arrogant stance related to regulators and frankly got spanked. And so that's been very instructive for us and our choices to reaffirm our commitment to responsible dialogue and engagement with the process. And so the... what we're currently about to start talking about more with Epicenter and what the world has seen for the past year or so with the first Epic Cash piece is really a multi-multi-year planning process and execution steps that have been ongoing. And a 10 to 20 year time horizon we're facing a paradigm shift, in my opinion, that is going to be akin to the 1946 Bretton Woods agreement that has persisted until today. And so this is a pivotal time in history and I think bitcoin will be the new base of the extras pyramid, the ultimate risk-free asset that forms the backstop of collateral for all the other financialization and fractional reserve activities that we're starting to see in DeFi as we've seen in the traditional finance space. And I think that to get to the next level of adoption, we need point of sale, and we need cheap fast transactions that conform to what bitcoin originally was that are uncensorable, and that everyone has access to, and that will take us from the 1 million people that use bitcoin today to the 10 million people. Not everybody in the world needs to use it right away, but with a combination a first of the dollar stablecoin and then of the other major currencies. And the system we're designing scales literally to 194 countries. Central bank digital currencies don't need to be a bad thing, and we're... we're offering technology solutions to help central banks implement their monetary policy. And I think that's part of an inclusive strategy, that says we all... we can disagree about everything else, but we all need to trade with each other, even countries at war found ways to trade on acceptable terms. And so when you have the global financial system Balkanizing and the Chinese are saying well we want our own system and we don't like the dollar and the Russians don't like the dollar and they don't like the other systems. You just need one neutral money system that's universal. The internet doesn't care what the picture is that you're looking at. It just... it just moves the data, and so we've created a money network that can work for everyone. And in order for it to be actually used by everyone, it needs to be tailored to their needs. And if you're a regulated traditional financial institution, you have fiduciary and legal obligations that you take very seriously. And I think there's a lot of institutional back pressure to come into crypto around stuff like lack of custody and especially lack of clarity that is increasingly getting more... let's say people know what to do now. And so all the pieces are there. We just need to use them in the right way to fulfill the promise that we've all known has been here within... within crypto.


Wayne: Yeah yeah, great stuff. You know my whole view back with the regulation side that we were talking about is it's a fine line... you know, that obviously we believe in and freedom for all. And that's a lot of people that are in crypto, their philosophy. But you know, in a world that... that comes up with rules and regulations, you've got that fine line of trying to enforce regulations, but you also without hindering innovation, right? So that's... that's always been... you know, something I've always been intrigued to watch what happens, because you can look back at history and see when certain countries have made decisions to regulate a certain sector, and then hindered innovation. And they lost out to the world economy where other places were willing to be open and accepting and innovate, so…

Max Freeman: That's a beautiful thing about open source and every aspect of Epic is open source. Every part of Epicenter is going to be open source or is open source as well. And so innovator is going to innovate and regulators going to regulate. I mean they work their side of the street. And we'll work our side of the street. But at the end of the day we all need to... to transact with one another. And I think that the... the regulation belongs at the application layer, not the protocol layer. I mean to try cripple and technological protocols with baggage that makes them less effective is not going to work, because in a free market especially with open source in a global interconnected economy, you just can't... I mean you can't impede the flow of progress. And so some places are trying to stick their head in the sand and pretend that these things don't exist. And other places are going to establish themselves as global leaders. And I think Switzerland is a... and even the United States Wyoming, those are great examples of consistent solid leadership. And a responsible approach to the balance between regulation and innovation, I look at countries like Malta and Estonia and the UAE that said we're going to be crypto and blockchain leaders. And then they said oh now we changed our mind and... and like now these are the new rules, so if regulation is about creating... creating a fair and level playing field for everyone, and you either have rule of law which in this context is code or you... and in my opinion, proof of work or you have rule of man which is proof of stake. And why do we have two Ethereums: ETC Ethereum Classic and ETH? It's because people decided to ignore the implications of their code. And that's fine that may be the best choice, but it's not as trustworthy as proof of work where fundamentally one plus one equals two or it doesn't. And so for me I choose to put my trust in the infallible. I mean most of the time once you work the code bugs out and that's a big part of why these systems are as small as they are. Because they need to be proven to handle the... the trillions and hundreds of trillions of dollars that will eventually be on them, but as those problems are solved, I mean bitcoin is the most secure computing system on the planet because if you crack it, you can take 300 billion of value. And of course quantum may change that which is another part of why Epic is multi-algorithm, because we can hot swap anything we want in there. And it just reduces the... the risk factor. But I think these... these troubled times politically and the social divisions that we're seeing the trade wars, it just reinforces how timely this is. It's... it's really not just about money. It's... it's about the future of our... of how we're going to interact with one another in the decades to come. It's really that pivotal.


Wayne: Yes yes, absolutely man. So Max tell me a little bit... it's been a while since we've really talked. We went into Epic. You kind of just already talked a little bit about Epicenter, but tell us what the fundamentals, what you guys are working on it? You know... what is epicenter working on should I say?

Max Freeman: Sure so... so Epicenter if you look at Coinbase as how most people understand bitcoin, the paradigm is you don't mind, you don't run a full node and you don't hold your keys. And that's because the chain file is large. The mining equipment is expensive and not available to everyone. And what was... what was the other piece and someone else keeps... keeps your keys. And so the Epicenter model is kind of like if you can think about Epic Cash as bitcoin and eUSD as not Tether but DAI which is a better stablecoin design that we're more closely modeling off of. But basically the Epicenter philosophy is you keep your keys. You don't have to trust anybody. You run a full node yourself, because the chain file is only one... one gig. And you remain in control. Nobody can block your money. Nobody can tell you what to do obviously as a... as an entirely decentralized phenomenon. There's no company involved and therefore there's no KYC and other regulatory requirements. And again that doesn't absolve anyone of the responsibility to be a good citizen and follow all of their legal and moral obligations. But as a practical matter we've seen Uniswap, Yearn finance and other exchanges alive because of those competitive advantages. And I think that will continue. And so we're positioning Epicenter and the Epic eUSD medium of exchange and store of value pair as a superior alternative to the existing offerings that gets us back to those original principles of what got people like me and you into crypto, which is that we don't have to trust anybody. We want to remain in our... in control of our own money. And ideally we want to be able to mine it at home, because that supports the network and gives you a different interaction with it than just as a consumer, is it peer-to-peer and you're a part of this or you're just a customer. And I think that's... that's an important DNA difference and so Epicenter, you can think of the ECR token as kind of like a wi-fi type of thing or an MKR. Basically the way it works is if you own Epic, you can stake that to get eUSD and then you supply liquidity to both the Epic and eUSD trading pair. And for that you share in the... the daily emission of ECR just like the Uniswap multi-year emission process works. It's modeled very closely after that but there's a couple innovative features. Because we thought about the incentives between yield farmers and long-term holders, and so we have what you can think of as a reverse tobin tax or a flavor of a tobin tax, where if you transfer your... your ECR tokens, you pay a one percent fee that goes into a locked liquidity pool on Uniswap that creates an ever growing price floor to underpin the value of the asset. In a system like Maker, you can't go and directly take the ETH that backs the issuance of the DAI stablecoin but in the Epicenter model, an eUSD is just a claim check on one dollar's worth of future Epic. And so in order for that peg to be trusted in times of stress, you need to be able to go and seize the... the collateral that's what we saw in the financial crisis. The banks went and took the homes underlying the... the mortgages. And there were some a lot of flaws and abuse with that process, but it... it did work. And so we think we've... we've got a solid alternative that meets the needs of all concerned as far as I mean if you don't have the right documents, you're blocked from not only the existing financial system and fiat, but you're also blocked from crypto. I mean everything you do these days is KYC and AML. And that's... that's great if you live here in the US, but even if you live in the US and you don't have the right documents, then it becomes a little iffy depending on the specifics of who you're trying to to trade with. And so just to go back to a permissionless non-custodial model, you're taking the... the friction out. I know friends that are in the exchange business or the fintech business and they tell me it costs two bucks to process a low quality KYC. And if you have to pay two dollars to onboard a customer and there's a delay, I mean it's a... it's a funnel like an e-commerce funnel here. Somebody clicks the product and then adds the cart. And not everybody who clicks it adds to cart and then add to cart and checkout and then check out and getting to that last stitch. That's why Amazon, one click and Amazon is kind of what it is, because of that the convenience of that one click button. And so if you have a Uniswap, just authorize Metamask and you're done versus let me submit my documents and then are they going to get hacked, like if you share your data, it's not even about compliance. If you share your data, no system is secure, Swift got hacked, Federal Reserve got hacked, Experian got hacked, Target got hacked, everybody gets hacked. All of our information has been on the dark web forever. And so if a disgruntled employee, if a sloppy database administrator, I mean Kucoin was great until it wasn't. Now 200 and something million dollars are out the door. And that's great that they've got insurance. But what about all these fractional reserve ponzi scheme exchanges that don't have the money to make it whole. I mean these are problems, and they're bad for crypto. And so with a non-custodial model that puts you in control that everyone can participate in, not only the mining at the hardware level, but the liquidity mining if you choose to put your Epic and eUSD to work, then you share in the trading fees. And so Epicenter is basically taking open source code that exists from all across the landscape and assembling the best pieces in a cohesive way that focuses on ease of use and open access to take crypto beyond the 1 million people a day level to 10 million people. And if we can get to 10 then we'll talk about about the 100, and we're off to the races. But right now we've got a lot of work to do. And I think we're kind of moving backward in a lot of ways. And the free market is innovating and putting stuff like Uniswap out there. But it's not going to happen by itself. And so Epicenter is our way to do... do our small part.


Wayne: Yeah I mean Uniswap is a great example of what's possible out there. I was telling somebody the other day, I mean, think about if gas fee Ethereum, if gas fees were not so high right now, where would Uniswap be in volume compared to other exchanges? It shows people are hungry for just free access. You're right. You just… you just basically link up, link your wallet to it, connect and you are part... you can be part of an economy.

Max Freeman: Well I think people underestimate the... the strength of Ethereum as it is and overestimate the importance of the transition to the 2.0 version based on proof of stake, because if you've played around with the layer 2 solutions like the one from Loopring or Optimism or some of the others that I can't even remember the name now, I mean it's instant, it's cheap, it works, it's easy. And so I think people are going to be surprised at how good the ETH or Ethereum layer 2 stuff is and we're going to build a large part of our infrastructure on Ethereum, not waiting for layer 2 but just these great... just these... not waiting for Ethereum 2.0 but going to these good layer 2 systems that have been in design for many years. I think Raiden was the original inspiration for a lot of this stuff. But yeah so I lost my train of thought... It's been been a... been a long day. But oh yeah the other thing that people don't understand about Mimblewimble, it was originally marketed as a privacy technology, and it does provide privacy benefits. But really it's about scalability, and so the way the math works in Mimblewimble is that it's fundamentally a lot more efficient to transfer assets or tokens on Mimblewimble than it is on say Ethereum, because you don't pay one gas fee per transfer, you have one proof of work block reward in essence. There may be some gas in there as an anti-spam thing more than anything else, but basically you get to reuse the points on the elliptic curve as many times as you want in that same computation and move tokens in batch rather than sequence. And so the... the native, we don't have it yet. But one of the things that we're going to be working hard on is moving the infrastructure that's going to exist on all these other blockchains, onto a multi-asset structure on Epic Cash. And people don't understand the... the possibilities of what's there. But if you take the time to study it, it's... it's really, in my opinion, Mimblewimble is the most important technology in all of... in all of crypto and blockchain. And I don't... I don't say that lightly. The other... the other key infrastructure partner that we're planning to build on is a product that a project that not many people know about that I like quite a bit and have actually been behind in... in my small way as an investor since the very early days. And that's Dfinity and their ICP token or the Internet Computer Platform. I think they and Nervos have a lot of the best design ideas that are ready for production today. And they're making smart choices about what's possible when you move away from proof of work which I think is the only solution that makes sense for an actual currency. But if you're doing a distributed compute platform or an internet computer that to try to do a censorship resistant decentralized tik tok like the Dfinity team has or you're doing simple token ledger transfers like 99% of ethereum is used for, maybe 98%, now we have one percent NFTs which is pretty cool. But I think the other... the other 20... 20 or so ETH killers so-called ETH killers are going to have a... an uphill battle to... to go against the... the big daddy.


Wayne: Yeah yep absolutely. You mentioned NFTs. Are you guys doing anything with NFTs? That's just a curiosity. I know it may not have nothing to do with the Epicenter, but...

Max Freeman: It reminds me of Dogecoin a little bit, and... Monero a little bit. We have people that have started creating NFTs and selling them. Somebody made one of me and I had them take it down. I said no, like there's no... there's no Satoshi or Vitalik of Epic like make it about the project, not about me. So he's redoing it, but people are selling physical art for Epic in auctions that you can only pay with Epic. It's a big... you know, use cases are what will get us to the next level. And so that's happening organically and.... and that's one part of it. But I think NFTs are awesome not just for Cryptokitties and digital art, but especially in-game items. One of the things that we're going to do with Epicenter is put out an ap API and SDK for game designers, where it's easier for them to use Epic game money basically, that you can convert to actual real world money. Imagine earning gold in World of Warcraft or Fortnite or one of these games, a second life Decentraland, you name it, and then being able to go and turn that into with that company a grub hub delivery or pay for your uber ride back home from your friends or something. I mean the possibilities are just I couldn't imagine this stuff 10 years ago. But it's here and so with NFTs, you have the ability to have in-game items become transferable. In-game items is another industry that I was invested in back in the 2017 boom. And a lot of those projects didn't work out, but we're seeing kind of it happen anyway with Ethereum, with some... some more recent names. And so imagine you can sell your special sword or shield and not have to go through Ebay and Paypal and Steam marketplace and all these other venues. Again you're just making it faster, cheaper, better, less friction and more censorship resistant based on a p2p structure. So I think NFTs are... are super important. And they'll also represent, in my opinion, title to physical assets. Like if you have a piece of art that you can transfer as a token. Or even let's say, farmers markets where if I'm a farmer and I want to sell one cucumber token before the season at 30 cents. And then you go and and it would be a dollar at harvest time. I mean why not? Like... so I think that to the focus on crypto as a speculation vehicle and as purely gambling, and about these very limited use cases that we've seen so far like CryptoKitties is to miss the significance because a car is not just a faster horse, I mean like a car changes the game. And when you have uncensorable technologies and apply them to... to money and then the rest of the finance sector, the world is never going to be the same. I mean it already isn't.

Wayne: Yeah yeah. I mean we... we don't know what's possible until something like this is there... just... And that technology spawns new new inventions that couldn't have happened before. That's what I love about the space that's why I asked about non-fungible tokens. I did a report on non-fungible tokens earlier this week for a company. And there's so many use cases. The reason I ask you is because I know a big segue for adoption and crypto is through gamers. Because gamers are already used to digital assets. And you know, buying and selling digital goods online, we just got a better... you know, better technology here. And then also non-fungibles are also going to be... that space is going to be... not that... a lot of adoption is going to come again through... through gamers, so having... you know, having some kind of tie-in with an in-game currency that can be used across a blockchain... you know, like... like Epic or... or something like that to where you can... you can create an economy with... with the token, because that's really what... you know, what we need to see for adoption is just full-scale economy use as far as like you said, I can buy it, I can sell it, I can use it, I can... you know, I can... I can spend it and then also the person that I spend it to... can use it to buy raw goods to make... make more product whatever the case may be.

Max Freeman: Well I mean, the way I look at it is that we've known since Adam Smith and his Wealth of Nations book that trade is the foundation of wealth and prosperity in our... in our economy. And if you look at trade that's about transactions and payments without an exchange of value, a transaction can't happen if you... if you don't have currency or money. And those are two very different things. But if you don't have one of those two things, then you're back to barter. And if I have a goat and you have a pickle, then we can't trade no matter how much we want to, or we have to be in the same place time and place, you have what's called the... the overlapping or double coincidence of wants. And so going back to barter is not the answer, I think we move forward to a new bitcoin standard rather than a gold standard. And in order to do that, we have to make the money flow, we have to... to have actual payments happening, most of the payments on the traditional financial system today and so driving transactions whether they're an in-game transaction for virtual gold or the new digital gold, which is Epic Cash or a non-fungible token representing fine art or a barrel of oil. The blockchain can handle all of those things. And it should handle all of those things.


Wayne: Yeah awesome, Maxwell, man. I definitely appreciate the time today, appreciate you joining us here on FTC Fintech Chat. It's been a pleasure. Any... any final parting thoughts on... you know, what excites you about... you know, what are you looking forward to over the next few months maybe through Epicenter or in the crypto space?

Max Freeman: I'm most excited about mobile mining on Epic Cash. The supply curve in the year 21 or the supply curve is identical to BTC and there will be only 21 million coins in the year 2140. But until then there's a process of catch up and we have four halvings over the next eight years. The supply will match that of bitcoin in eight years as of two halvings from now in BTC, but in the meantime that means we're only 44 percent emitted. And so if you miss the vote on bitcoin and it's already or btc rather and it's already 10000$ and you can't mine it, then being able to... to wind back in time to 2010, and jump on that bandwagon through mining is awesome. But not everybody has even a laptop. And so if you can mine on a cheap mobile phone, or a tablet and have that be actual proof of work that delivers computation to the network, not like some of the other gimmicky systems where they just kind of distribute coins through the app, and it's not really the same. I think that'll be awesome. There's 5.6 billion phones that would be able to mine Epic, so a few months might be aggressive. But it's... it's all just reconstituting stuff that exists from other open source contexts. And so I feel pretty confident about the... the execution capabilities on that. And the other thing is that we're going to be doing a pure community launch for ECR existing Epic holders will benefit from that. And then it'll be pure liquidity mine again over that eight year period, where there'll be ample opportunity for... for everyone and a balance between appropriate rewards for first movers and early believers, but also people that may not hear about it until five years from now. And so we... I think we've got the right... the right balance that learns from all the other projects that... that are out there. It's amazing that we have 10 years of... of history to go by at this point in crypto.


Wayne: Yeah cool. Well Max, hey one last thing, man. Tell everybody where they can find more information about Epicenter, Epic Cash. Where can they go to find out more information?

Max Freeman: So is the current website for the Epic Cash part of it, there's not much publicly available for Epicenter yet. But people will be hearing increasingly more about that. I would just log on, just search Epic Cash pretty much anywhere and you'll find it. Reddit, Facebook, Telegram has the most action. There's a Discord server, a Facebook group, Wechat QQ, I mean you name it. It's a global phenomenon at this point so it's a... that's actually another... another point that I should mention is that we're all volunteers. It's a free open source, non-profit endeavor. I don't get paid, no one else gets paid and so it's a really authentic awesome community. There's some people that just want to get their lambo, and that's fine. But I think you'll find that there's a greater proportion of truest of true believers that are into crypto for the right reasons that have assembled themselves around this set of ideas. And so if this sounds appealing to anyone, there's people 24/7 that would be welcoming to tell you all about it, so come say hi on any one of our channels.

Wayne: Awesome, all right. Max, thanks again for joining us and everybody, thanks for watching FTC, Fintech Chat. We'll see you on the next episode. Take care everybody.

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About Blockchain Wayne (Host)

Wayne has been managing, teaching, and coaching high performing teams for over 20 years. He has a passion for helping and teaching people and a passion for cryptocurrency and blockchain projects. He has created various coaching programs and partnerships with select education platforms and cryptocurrency program tools.

You can learn more on his website:

About Stably

Stably is a fast growing FinTech company from Seattle founded in 2018 by a team of former bankers and Amazon software engineers. The team has raised close to $3M in funding to date from angel investors as well as leading venture capital firms like 500 Startups, BEENEXT and Pay It Forward. Stably is also the blockchain developer for a wide range of cryptographic tokens and stablecoins backed by real assets, such as USD, EUR, CAD, precious metals and real estate. Our mission is to make financial transactions faster, cheaper and more transparent through a borderless digital money platform powered by open-banking and blockchain technologies.

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